Maybe it will help with the discussions if you accept that making monkey noise when facing Brazilians wasn't a great idea. I totally understand that it wasn't intentional or directed at the Brazilians, but I feel like you keep on insisting that monkey sounds when facing Brazilians aren't racist. Again, you aren't racist but the act of making monkey sounds in certain situations is 100% racist and I feel like you still haven't accepted that.It befuddles me that people are struggling to see the difference between calling someone of color the N-word and making a monkey sound toward your other white friend because you both enjoy monkeys.
I like monkeys, Naomi likes monkeys, we made monkey sounds for 10 seconds to be funny and get hyped for a match.
No monkey noises were made toward brazilians, imitating brazilians or even because brazilians were in the loading screen. There was NO CONNECTION between these two parties/events.
I always laughed at the "cancel culture" you hear people complaining about but tbh iv gone through a week of people dming me threats to my life, going to my streaming every day multiple times telling me to "eat their monkey ****s" "racists can burn" things of this nature... Even if you did nothing wrong, it almost makes you want to cancel yourself just because you don't want to be around people anymore. I pmed gabi to work things out with her, we both felt very attacked by the community and seemed to genuinely understand the others point of view. I asked if she could retract her post so that I could avoid all the attacks. She had already left aoezone.
Firstly, id like to point out that admins need to parse out intent in the same way we do as human beings speaking to each other over different languages and cultures. You need to stop locking full discussions and time out certain peoples who become very obvious to solely want to create negative drama/content on your forums. When you lock and leave libelous material about me and others on your page it does nothing but create another problem for us to sort which can come through reasonable discussion in an open forum or we can go down avenues that would lead to you taking down the material.
Secondly, I think everyone should take time to parse out truth from propaganda or even simple ignorance and be a little bit more understanding of peoples ability to be wrong and that being ok. I totally understand Gabi not coming to me directly after more reflection, it would have been the simplest solution but not fair to ask of someone who genuinely thinks they are being attacked so in that sense I was hopeful but wrong. This type of thinking has also brought on alot of heat to Gabi from others because now I am a victum being attacked for no reason and she is smearing my reputation, form of income and mental health. <-- this is true and it is painful, but this doesn't mean we can attack Gabi for "wanting attention" "having a big ego" these were the nicer insults I saw, I'm sure she also got nasty pmed ones aswell. Attacking victims or perpetrators or even any person with an argument is never beneficial. We have to look at the subject matter, use our reason and offer our perspective.
Please be nice to Gabi
Please be nice to Spring/Naomi
lets be better gang.
You are ignorant to think this. Most US citizens have no idea about futbol happenings, regardless of their significance to the rest of the world.Saying today that you don't know how PoC are being offended in Football after the last few years doesn't make it better and is unbelievable. Then you are really just an ignorant person, because even if you don't like Football (me for example) you have heard about this incidents nearly everywhere. You must have lived under a stone to not have heard anything about it. So this isn't even an excuse.
Sorry, I think it's time we call it "m-word" now. Or a cancel is warranted sooner or later.View attachment 195966
You can call me monkey anyday. I love monkeys. I met more humble monkeys then humans in my life.
Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to settle this debate or even definitively structure it, just my idea how we as a community might learn something from this multiple-thread discussion (if there is something to learn from it at all).
Points probably most participants in the discussion will agree on:
Points no agreement has been reached on:
- There are racial slurs, which are racial slurs (almost) independent of the context, like the n-word; one can try to meta-communicate that, if the word is used for whatever reason, no offense is intended, but one should be aware that, at least, you reproduce a racial slur, which is a bad thing for itself; and trying to meta-communicate this awareness is where you will get into trouble.
- There are racial slurs, which more or less heavily depend on context, like making animal sounds.
- When addressing or referring to people of colour, making ape sounds is a racial slur, regardless of whether you are aware of that or not.
- Spring and Naomi where neither addressing or referring to people of colour,
- One can unintentionally offend or hurt people.
- Everyone has the right to be offended and feel hurt based on a misunderstanding and to react accordingly, even if the reaction, from a strictly rational point of view, might be "not ideal".
- If people, intentionally or unintentionally deal damage to others, they should apologize.
- It is not OK for people who were not part of the incident to aggressively address the people involved after the specific incident has been clarified, just for the purpose of pushing a political agenda.
- Racism hurts people and damages societies. Its means of reproduction should be analyzed and it would be desirable, if racism in our community and the general society were absent.
- People should empathize and try to understand others' positions and feelings to avoid unnecessary conflict.
- Is the racist character of a communicative statement bound to racist intention of the statement or not?
- At what point one crosses the line between pointing out that, based on context, there hasn't been racist intent, and downplaying (and thus reproducing) racism?
- At what point one crosses the line between analyzing discourses and trying to dictate them?
- Is it necessary to talk about "politics" in a forum devoted to a virtual RTS game?
Correct me, if something is wrong or incomplete =)
Not sure if clowning or didn't read what i was referring to. It's very understandable to not be into sports and I was trying to point out that you learn about the racial use of monkey slurs in other contexts. I read it frequently in the normal newsThis is something people bring up quite a bit. Is it hard to believe some people don't follow soccer at all and never really heard of this kind of thing? But that's besides the point I guess.
I don't know this for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something not covered in the general news in the US, or perhaps only covered by a certain subset of news providers (ones with certain political leanings or in locations where football is more popular or ones with more sport coverage in general), due to the sport it relates to being much less popular there (in germany i believe it's the biggest sport, or at least the biggest when it comes to high level international competition, which isn't the case in the US at all).Not sure if clowning or didn't read what i was referring to. It's very understandable to not be into sports and I was trying to point out that you learn about the racial use of monkey slurs in other contexts. I read it frequently in the normal news
I do get if people don't know the meaning but i think it is not something that is a secret, but anyhow. Anybody who wasn't aware knows a little more now.I don't know this for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something not covered in the general news in the US, or perhaps only covered by a certain subset of news providers (ones with certain political leanings or in locations where football is more popular or ones with more sport coverage in general), due to the sport it relates to being much less popular there (in germany i believe it's the biggest sport, or at least the biggest when it comes to high level international competition, which isn't the case in the US at all).
That being said I also don't know whether the same thing happens in the more popular sports in the US and it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Edit: also a lot of people are just uninformed in general, after all news is pretty depressing lol
That just shows nothing else, than that you aren't effected by it in your daily life, which is your personal privilege.You might hear of couple of such incidents, but it's not something you witness in your everyday life.
That just shows nothing else, than that you aren't effected by it in your daily life, which is your personal privilege.
God this world is devolving real fast.Not doing something intentionally doesn't make it less bad.
Spot onThey are incomparable. An anecdote of a friend knowingly using a racist, derogatory, pejorative term that historically has been only used to denigrate a race of people(s) is not the same as a language barrier and lack of context/comprehension. There is no acceptable utilization of "beaner."
In the situation you are comparing to (which presents an improper comparison to frame a proper discussion,) a homonym was uttered that most prevalently is used to describe an animal. It also happens to be the word that describes the animal. Has it been used to racially denigrate others? Absolutely! Was it in this case? No!
(Unlike other top 10 Pro Players who have used homophobic slurs repeatedly over the years, while continuing to utter misogynistic insults that "woke," streamers ignore because of their position in AOE 2. For they dare not upset the money train -- magically forgiven only to repeat the same vile **** on the next stream.)
Say you stream and during the lead up to a game the word and color "yellow," comes up when discussing painting a house. For some reason, you think yellow is an ugly color. Really hate it. Make fun of people who paint their house yellow. ****ing hate yellow, and all of the people who like yellow!
Imagine all this occurs during the beginning of a game with an Asian player, unbeknownst to you. The players friend is absolutely enraged. Livid! They work your opponent into a frenzy, tell them they heard that streamer call them "yellow." Not only that, but they also heard that they hate them personally, and called them both "ugly," and "yellow."
Known to you (or perhaps not! ) "yellow" has been used as a pejorative term to denigrate Asian people(s) since at least the time of Ghengis Khan.
This actually happened on a stream I like recently. They played someone who had part of their name as "Negro." They resigned the game immediately, and then went on a 2-3 minute talking point about how disgusting it is to see racism like that in AOE. How frustrating it is to have to deal with that, and how despicable it is.
What they didn't realize is that the player was Argentinian, a country that speaks Spanish, where the word for black is negro.
Due to the language barrier, it is completely lost on both of them that yellow is also a primary color that happens to describe quite accurately a color you most despise when painted, quite vociferously. It also happens to be the most accurate word to describe it, because the pejorative term derived from it is not frequently used at all, certainly not by you. But for them, because they are projecting their own personal experiences and interpretation the person in question just hears the term someone used to racially abuse them in the past.
I would expect them to be absolutely livid if due to a language and/or context barrier had no idea what the conversation was about and genuinely felt upset/jilted because they assumed they were being racially abused!
Perhaps even make an aoezone post about it.
But I would expect it to be resolved reasonably when instant replay comes in and it's discovered that nothing offensive actually took place. I wouldn't expect you to be harassed for using the word "yellow." Nor see attempts to make you feel guilty or request you apologize for the unfortunate coincidence that represented unfortunate timing, lack of context, and a significant language barrier. All things that attributed to someone elses misunderstanding, despite no actual malfeasance occurring.
I wouldn't say "You know what, I'm a milquetoast human. There was a lot of contrary, emotional opinions on the matter. Since I'm incapable of comprehending whether an injustice has actually occurred, in spite of the only evidence being that there was a language barrier and an unfortunate coincidence.....Both were right/wrong. I believe both parties can learn from this. Yellow should simply never be used on a stream again, for it might offend someone. By gods, you must be living in the stone age. It has been known since the era of Ghengis Khan to be offensive!"
The role of the community, especially in a global community should be to help provide context when language causes confusion and potentially has emotional, and potentially financially damaging accusation(s)/implication(s). I feel like it's not a community's responsibility to make everyone feel "right." I do feel like it's a community's responsibility to call out racism and abuse when it occurs.
But it didn't here.
When the facts present that a misunderstanding occurred, it does in fact become black and white. One can accept that there was a misunderstanding, or in spite of all evidence contrary one can choose believe that there was not.
There was a misunderstanding.
Agreed. False equivalence on my behalf.They are incomparable. An anecdote of a friend knowingly using a racist, derogatory, pejorative term that historically has been only used to denigrate a race of people(s) is not the same as a language barrier and lack of context/comprehension. There is no acceptable utilization of "beaner."
In the situation you are comparing to (which presents an improper comparison to frame a proper discussion,) a homonym was uttered that most prevalently is used to describe an animal. It also happens to be the word that describes the animal. Has it been used to racially denigrate others? Absolutely! Was it in this case? No!
what's a bit annoying it that on the internet you're supposed to know and abide by all the little cultural specificities of the US, notably regarding what's considered acceptable or not, but the collective consciousness doesn't give a **** about specificities anywhere else. I'm confident that if making monkey sounds beared the same cultural weight in the US as it bears in brazil, it would be totally frown upon to make them and everyone would know it and respect it tacitly.I don't know this for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something not covered in the general news in the US, or perhaps only covered by a certain subset of news providers (ones with certain political leanings or in locations where football is more popular or ones with more sport coverage in general), due to the sport it relates to being much less popular there (in germany i believe it's the biggest sport, or at least the biggest when it comes to high level international competition, which isn't the case in the US at all).
That being said I also don't know whether the same thing happens in the more popular sports in the US and it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Edit: also a lot of people are just uninformed in general, after all news is pretty depressing lol
Read again because this is not true at all lmao. This forum is 90% right wing takes when it comes to politics.Is it just me or aoezone turning into a spot for radical leftist users like @simonsan ?