I agree with almost all of this although I do prefer a live final as as the match not having happened yet is the only 100% guarantee that there’s no way the result can be spoiled.HC4 overall was great, watched almost every game (on a second screen). Some things I think were great and would love to see in HC5:
Now onto some things that I'd love to see improved in HC5:
- Highlight video of the Qualifiers (by @K1_ ) I really hope there will be one of the Main event as well. Perhaps you could make vids about highlights from previous hidden cups as well to show in the breaks.
- CaptureAge was amazing, really improved on their previous versions. The stats page and the playback mode are sick! The extra information also makes it a lot more user-friendly.
- I liked most of the new maps and I think it was a good decision to not let all of them get played until the Main Event. I was a bit worried that it would result in maps that weren't play-tested enough and would result in unfair civ matchups or had unfair generations, but that wasn't the case, so well done!
- Stats on the overlay were fun as well as the fanzone and pro players predictions (well done @dux )
- Hidden Cup Guessing videos were very well produced as usual, but I agree that we've seen the same four or five players in pretty much every Hidden Cup. I would love to see more videos like the boar luring one where it shows new or inexperienced viewers some insight in how to guess the players. I think you could do something similar for farm placement and autofarm/queue farm in mill (would fit well with the t90Farms meme) and other small stuff like that.
- Casting was great! Hallis and slam showed great insight, Dash is always great to have on a broadcast and Nili didn't show any rust. Dave is the best cocaster for a reason and made listening to T90 bearable
- Guessing form worked flawless. I would suggest to make it public a bit earlier though. After all Ro16 sets have been played and we've seen each player, why not make it public? Now you're excluding people who weren't able to watch the Grand Finals, even though they watched everything else. Maybe it's still in the works, but I think it's also good to share the results or let people know where they can see how many people they guessed correct. The data is also interesting and if the form is open earlier you could maybe show it before semi's and grand final (according to 19% of the viewers we're watching Jordan vs Hera here).
- The qualifiers showed a great level and on it's own could warrant a tournament. My only complaint is that the map pool was a bit small due to some maps being saved for the Main Event.
- The homemaps situation. It shouldn't be possible for one player to have 3 homemaps, while the other one has just one.
- Set maps. I don't think they're needed as players will prepare for the tournament with a prizepool this high. It can also be a bit unfair to a player who's naturally more gifted in one type of map (Arabia for some, Islands for others)
- Invitations. I don't think it makes much sense to invite the top 8 from this tournament to the next tournament, especially given how competitive the scene is right now. I think it would be better to look at the result of the latest tournaments instead of just looking at Hidden Cup.
- Finals played live. It's not going to be fair if one player has to play at a really late or early time, while the other is used to play at that time or is less affected by playing at a weird time. Considering that the rest of the tournament uses recorded games, I don't think people will really complain if you do the same for the finals. It also makes people try to eliminate people by looking at who's in the Twitch chat or who's online on Steam etc. On top of that there's probably less delay between games, so you can finish a bit faster and will have less people leave in the downtime.
So to summarise my thoughts, I think the format of Hidden Cup is fantastic, but in the context of the competitive AoE2 scene it just has a really odd place. The prestige and prize pool to me seem disproportionate to the unfairness that naturally comes with the format. In my opinion, a solution would be to reduce the funding for Hidden Cup somewhat, and put it towards a strictly competitive 1v1 RM tournament with mixed maps, either online or -eventually- as a LAN event. Perhaps even a collaboration between multiple major tournament organisers would be amazing. I know that there are a lot of factors and interests that will make it very difficult to organise, but one can dream I guess.
HC5 has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and most subs. Simple as that. If a LAN event would get 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs, it would be the most funded one.So to summarise my thoughts, I think the format of Hidden Cup is fantastic, but in the context of the competitive AoE2 scene it just has a really odd place. The prestige and prize pool to me seem disproportionate to the unfairness that naturally comes with the format. In my opinion, a solution would be to reduce the funding for Hidden Cup somewhat, and put it towards a strictly competitive 1v1 RM tournament with mixed maps, either online or -eventually- as a LAN event. Perhaps even a collaboration between multiple major tournament organisers would be amazing. I know that there are a lot of factors and interests that will make it very difficult to organise, but one can dream I guess.
I think the problem a lot of people have - certainly one of my biggest issues with the HC series - is that these two statements are about the same event.HC5 has the biggest prizepool.
The main purpose of the event is to have FUN, not for everybody to be tryharding around.
That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.I think the problem a lot of people have - certainly one of my biggest issues with the HC series - is that these two statements are about the same event.
To be honest, I think HC4 has the biggest pricepool because T90 as a person has shown his succes in organizing events. I think if T90 would organize a 'standard' mixed map tournament, with the same pricepool while keeping it more competitive and fair, the same amount of viewers could be reached simply because it's T90 who's organizing and hyping it up as a person, not the tournament itself perse.That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.
I really question if a tryhard LAN event would ever get the same viewers and subs. If it did, it WOULD have a bigger prizepool. In the moment, it simply doesn't, but maybe someday it will.
What Elvaenor said: HC is the biggest tournament because T90 is the biggest streamer, and he could have equal success with many types of event. Viewer experience is tremendously important in AoE as in any sport or esport, but I don't believe for a second that a good show precludes the possibility of a fair one.That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.
I really question if a tryhard LAN event would ever get the same viewers and subs. If it did, it WOULD have a bigger prizepool. In the moment, it simply doesn't, but maybe someday it will.
What you guys seem to struggle to understand is that, well, doing things for fun is T90's niche. He grew up his community, and is arguably the most succesful aoe 2 streamer, by doing his wacky, creative content. That's what T90's fans look for, and that's his identity.To be honest, I think HC4 has the biggest pricepool because T90 as a person has shown his succes in organizing events. I think if T90 would organize a 'standard' mixed map tournament, with the same pricepool while keeping it more competitive and fair, the same amount of viewers could be reached simply because it's T90 who's organizing and hyping it up as a person, not the tournament itself perse.
Congratulations to T90 for making HC4 the succes it was! It's really awesome to see how his dedication for the age community has done wonders in terms of viewership and popularity. Other than that I don't think I have too much to add from what already has been said. I really enjoyed the tournament overall, but personally I'd have enjoyed it even more if it was spread out slightly more with fair brackets to make it more competitive. Hopefully HC5 can step down as a more gimmicky tournament with a smaller pricepool but keeping it fun nonetheless, with another flagship tournament for T90 with more standard settings.
Yeah you're struggling to understand everything and most people here also are judging by the likes you obtained. For me it's fine that the biggest tournament would be the most competitive and serious as well, and I would love that. But I'm saying it's apparently not possible to happen at the very moment, because most people are willing to watch and donate and sub for a less serious tournament. If this wasn't the case, it would be Memb or Nili that would obtain 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs when hosting their tournaments, not T90.I don't think anyone is struggling to understand anything. Unlike you, we just don't want the biggest tournament of the year to have the least competitive settings.
That's not how it works, Nili and Memb are not as popular on twitch as T90 by a long shot, that makes a huge difference in the viewer numbers. Btw, Nili did also break viewer records with NAC so this statement doesn't make sense anyway, memb also got massive viewernumbers with his KOTD tournament, albeit less than with Nili or T90. This may be due to the tournament but it seems obvious to me that this is because Memb just doesn't have the same reach as T90 and Nili.If this wasn't the case, it would be Memb or Nili that would obtain 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs when hosting their tournaments, not T90.
I'm not stating what I want here. I'm stating the facts. What we want doesn't matter, because aoezone is just a small bubble compared to the whole aoe2 community.
T90 himself is a top 100 player, so he's got a very competitve mindset himself as well. He's hosted big and popular showmatches before that also drew in thousands of viewers. Saying that he's only doing wacky and creative content as a niche is selling him short by a large margin.What you guys seem to struggle to understand is that, well, doing things for fun is T90's niche. He grew up his community, and is arguably the most succesful aoe 2 streamer, by doing his wacky, creative content. That's what T90's fans look for, and that's his identity.
Yeah and why is T90 the biggest streamer, with most viewers and subs by far? Is it by coincidence, or is it because his style fits most aoe2 consumers' taste? You're almost getting my point...That's not how it works, Nili and Memb are not as popular on twitch as T90 by a long shot, that makes a huge difference in the viewer numbers. Btw, Nili did also break viewer records with NAC so this statement doesn't make sense anyway, memb also got massive viewernumbers with his KOTD tournament, albeit less than with Nili or T90. This may be due to the tournament but it seems obvious to me that this is because Memb just doesn't have the same reach as T90 and Nili.
T90 got the most viewers for his HC because he's the biggest streamer. The event he hosted this time was HC to bring in the big numbers, but it could as well be a more competitive tournament.
T90 himself is a top 100 player, so he's got a very competitve mindset himself as well. He's hosted big and popular showmatches before that also drew in thousands of viewers. Saying that he's only doing wacky and creative content as a niche is selling him short by a large margin.
im glad you liked it :D i already made a highlight video for the main event and t90 showed it at the end of his stream on the final day of hidden cup. he'll probably release it on youtube soon tooHighlight video of the Qualifiers (by @K1_ ) I really hope there will be one of the Main event as well. Perhaps you could make vids about highlights from previous hidden cups as well to show in the breaks.
CS:GO does this. For example ESL has 3 different CS:GO twitch channels for this reason. Tournaments go much faster if you can have 2 or 3 games at the same time. But I agree: wouldn't work in Hidden Cup.Two streams at the same time is good if all players are known so viewers can choose which players they wanna watch. In hidden cup it kinda loses it's purpose, not to mention I've not heard of something like this in any eSports, and it's hard to compare esports to real sports in structure of events.
the voobly stream used to do this in the past, they have two channels voobly_offical and voobly_Stream i think. They were only used if they had two events happening at the same time. Dont think age is big enough for it atm tho. Most tournaments are hostet by casters who want to grow from hosting them ofc.CS:GO does this. For example ESL has 3 different CS:GO twitch channels for this reason. Tournaments go much faster if you can have 2 or 3 games at the same time. But I agree: wouldn't work in Hidden Cup.
Emperor In a Barrel made it to the Semifinals of HC3.3- The fact that no meme hero (cobra car, god's own sling, warwolf etc.) ever makes it past quarterfinals in ANY of the 4 Hidden Cups so far is a big bummer in the event for me and I believe for most viewers. Robo could rig the system a bit to give the meme heroes to the top 4 players. Kappa